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  1. #1
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    PCT and Ancillaries 101

    By Needtogetaas
    Pramipexole
    Unlike bromo and Dostinex, Pramipexole is a NON ergot dopamine agonist with high in vitro specificity at the D2 subfamily of dopamine receptors. Pramipexole is a complete agonist and clearly displays a higher affinity to the D3 receptors than to D2 or D4 receptors. While pramipexole displays high affinity for the D2 receptors, it still has low affinity for a2-adrenergic receptors and an untraceable affinity for other dopaminergic, histaminergic, adrenergic, and other receptors. This stuff is POTENT, even though its biggest positive effects on GH are within the first 3 hours after dosing, it still significantly lowers prolactin and for some reason it seems to also have the biggest positive effect on increasing testosterone over all other prolactin blockers. It makes me laugh because the most common feedback you hear about it from someone experiencing it for the first time is the stuffy nose, which is from the increased dopamine which means its working its designated effects.


    Bromocriptine (Parlodel)

    Bromocriptine is a dopamine mimetic derivative with D2 receptor agonist and D1receptor antagonist actions. It is used most commonly as a prolactin inhibitor in individuals who are suffering of hyperprolactinemia, also used as a growth hormone suppressant in managing acromegaly, and also used an medication for the management of Parkinson’s disease. The structure and activity of this drug are very comparable to cabergoline. The human medical data concerning the impending role this drug could play in supporting evidence on fat loss is hopeful. Studies have shown that Bromo was effective in helping lower bf% when added to experiment as there were no other changes to the diet, sleep pattern or physical activity. This in my opinion is pretty much logical since increasing dopamine should increase GH in return create fat loss. Dopamine inhibits the secretion and production of prolactin by binding to the receptors in the lactotrophs, which in return prevents the possibilities of prolactin manifesting itself. Although its not as popular as it once was, it’s still commonly used and may be a bit safer than the other prolactin inhibitors.
    2.5-5mgs a day should do the job while on a heavy progesterone based cycle.

    Dostinex (Cabergoline)
    Cabergoline is a selective dopamine receptor agonist. It is highly specific in its actions, with a strong affinity binding for the dopamine D2 receptor, but has a low affinity binding for dopamine D1, A1-adrenergic, A2-adrenergic, 5-HT1-serotonin, and 5-HT2-serotonin receptors. Its main clinical use is for the treatment of hyperprolactinemia, which is the hyper secretion of prolactin from lacto tropes in the anterior pituitary. It is also used in the management of Parkinson’s disease. This drug effectively inhibits prolactin secretion by acting like the typical actions of dopamine on the D2 receptor. The most popular brand name for the drug is Dostinex, which is produced in the United States and many other countries around the world by the large pharmaceutical company Pharmacia. Cabergoline is usually found in tablets of 500mcg each. This drug also has the ability to aid in curing Parkinson disease which is a disease in which a person has too little functioning dopamine within the brain causing many unfavorable drawbacks to the CNS. That is why if one overdoses on it, they will notice they will get carpal tunnel like symptoms, if that occurs DO NOT continue usage, if the symptoms continue; be sure to contract your physician or poison control. It has been touted to outperform Viagra in the pleasure department along the refractory time which honestly if you understand these drugs well; it’s a no brainer.
    I suggest .25-.5mg 1-2 different doses, NO MORE than that. Dopamine agonsits such as these can be dangerous just as Insulin, so please be very diligent in the manner you take this drug.
    Last edited by MMA777; 05-28-2011 at 01:19 AM.

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    Lasix (Furosemide)
    Furosemide falls in the class of drugs known as loop diuretics. These diuretics cause the body to excrete water as well as sodium, potassium, magnesium, calcium, and chloride, basically electrolytes. These drugs are mainly used to treat high blood pressure. Furosemide functions by inhibiting the Na-K-2CI symporter in the thick ascending loop of Henle. The Henl is a carrier protein (like Glut-4) that pulls electrolytes inside cells. This course of accomplishment is free of any inhibition towards aldosterone. Loop diuretics can have an extremely dramatic effect on fluid and electrolyte levels in the body so be careful with dosing. The electrolyte that seems to get flushed out the most is potassium which is why if one cannot obtain constant bloodwork, must supplement with a form of potassium so that their organs; in particularly the heart and kidneys do not fail on one because of a lack of potassium. Overdosing of potassium can also cause heart palpatations and even be fatal. If an Athlete or bodybuilder uses this type of diuretic, it would be for a couple of specific purposes within SHORT periods of time. Competitive athletes in sports could use this drug to drop water weight, in order to make their weight class requirement. This makes it easy on the athlete because he will be able to rehydrate himself right after the weigh in with no problem and will more than likely be more replenished than his opponent giving him an endurance edge factor. Bodybuilders on a well known fact depend on diuretics when preparing for a contest. Furosemide can efficiently lower subcutaneous water concentrations, which should give the individual a more “cut up” look; this gives him an advantage over the others when judges are looking for pure muscle formations. One other reason that bodybuilders use Furosemide is to lower blood pressure while running a highly aromatizing anabolic to avoid the use of an AI, some bodybuilders are afraid to further damage their cholesterol so they don’t want to run a risk of heart issues with an AI, hence the use of Furosemide. Honestly, if estrogen levels are out of whack, an AI will only do good if used properly, that is why most bodybuilders do not use Lasix for that purpose anymore.
    Dosing: 20-80 mgs of Lasix, 2 separate doses at 12 hours apart, NOTE; this drug has an extremely potent effect on electrolytes and it’s not something I condone the use of.


    AI’s
    Exemestane (Aromasin)
    Exemestane is a steroidal suicidal Type 1 irreversible aromatase inhibitor. It’s a naturally occurring substance from androstenedione which makes it very similar to formestane, one can call them brothers if they would like. It’s a newer generation AI which shows lots of promising potential as it does not abuse cholesterol as bad as other AI’s have been reported to do so along positive effects on bone mineral density. It also does not lower IGF levels which pretty much all other AI’s with the exception of formestane (raises IGF) lowers them. Since Exemestane is a steroidal AI, it does have some androgenic properties which can lead to some minor strength and size gain along an increase masculinity. The byproduct from the liver called 17-hydroxyexemestane is a metabolite which is created by the reduction of the 17-oxo group by way of the 17-beta-hydroxysteroid dehydrogenase which is responsible for its potent anti-estrogenic properties. Studies suggest Exemestane will block circulating estrogen up to 85% in women and 65% in men within a 12 hour span. When exemestane reaches full blood plasma concentration within the blood, it will block up to 98% of estrogen which means its POTENT. Based on a couple of studies I have read the only AI that can be taken with Novladex to reduce the estrogen that comes from increased testosterone would be Exemestane. Novladex inhibits the effectiveness of arimadex and other AI’s based on this study: J Steroid Biochem Mol Biol. 2001 Dec;79(1-5):85-91. I present the study to you good bros so you see that I am not trying pull the wool over your eyes. The suggested use of Aromasin/Exemestane is 25mg to see the 20% decrease in SHBG, 65% decrease in estradiol, and 60% increase in total/ 117% in free testosterone.

    A NOTE: The main difference between Type 1(suicidal) and Type 2(competitive) is that type 1 will deactivate the estrogen and the enzyme will be gone, which means a new aromatase enzyme must be created. In Type 2 AI’s, the AI will compete for the binding site and once the individual stops taking the AI, the effects will come to a hault which can be problematic if you are on or still carry metabolites of a highly aromatizing androgen in your system.

    Aminoglutethimide
    This was the first AI to come into the medical field, it was a precursor to both androgen/estrogens. It manifested itself within the adrenal cortex which leads it to reduce adrenocortical steroid synthesis, if one had normal cortisol levels, this would be actually dangerous for the individual because cortisol is needed for the body to function properly and maintain homeostasis. Don’t get me wrong it reduced estrogen quite significantly but reducing desmolase is something one should not play around with which is why people don’t see it around much lately. Contrary to the popular belief/myth, it does not lower androgen levels. Dosing on this bad boy has been suggest anywhere from 250mg-1g, I suggest no more than 250mg, but I do NOT recommend this AI over other one’s unless one is suffering from Cushion’s Syndrome. There are other ways of lowering cortisol which are effective and safe.

    Arimadex (Anastrozole)
    Anastrozole is a Type 2 non-steroidal competitive aromatase inhibitor (second generation) which functions by blocking the aromatase enzyme (chromosome P450), the key enzyme responsible for the conversion of testosterone to estrogen. Without the usage of an AI during an aromatizing cycle there are many unwanted side effects that may occur such as water retention, fat gain and growth of glandular tissue within the breast tissue aka gyno.Estrogen is needed for increased androgen receptor density, increased GH, IGF output, and glucose metabolism/utilization. Competitve reversible aromatse inhibitros do not stop the production or reduce estrogen, but prevent the estrogen from launching its effects by competitively binding up the receptors for estrogen, which is paralyzes estrogen from manifesting it’s tendencies. Unfortunately as explained before, once one stops taking it, the enzyme will continue from where it left at which could potentially lead to an estrogen overload aka “estrogen rebound”. Since Arimadex works is potent at preventing estrogen manifestation, it can plunge cholesterol levels.Estrogen is needed to maintain healthy cholesterol levels which is common sense it is cholesterol derived. This why many people prefer to use SERM’s to control estrogen while on cycle without limiting gains and keeping cholesterol ratios of HDL to LDL in a healther range. If I had to suggest a SERM to use during a cycle, it would definitely be Raloxifene since its more potent than Novla in reducing gyno and does not have much evidence of affecting IGF, plus its less toxic than Novla as well. One other drawback is that Arimadex is really expensive, near the price as exemstane; yet in my opinion nowhere near the value as exemestane. Although, there is no doubt that Arimadex is potent as it does block over 95% of estrogen within peak concentrations, near Letro but not quite that strong.

    Letrozole
    Letrozole ( third generation) is a non steroidal selective third generation aromatse inhibitor which just like Arimadex will not give off androgenic effects. Its very similar to Arimadex which why they both are called Type2 non-sterodial competitive aromatase inhibitor. The main difference between Femara and Arimadex is that Femara is MORE potent. The MAX dosage for this AI is only 2.5mgs, by no means does one ever up the dosage, this will obliterate one’s estrogen by 98-99% within peak concentrations and is detrimental to cholesterol over pronlonged usage. I never recommend it on testosterone since studies suggest that when estrogen is blocked while taking testosterone, HDL (good cholesterol) plummets to unsafe levels. Now the good thing about letro is that if estrogen is starting to irritate the glandular tissue of the breast tissue, letro if presented on time will clear up the issues at hand. For some reason people think that if gyno calcifies; Letro will be able to get rid of it, NOT TRUE, only surgery will get rid of gyno at that point. Be aware of your chest when running any compound as I have seen non-aromatizing compounds cause gyno in some people. Remember when using AAS, you are using an exogenous hormone that is not part of the body’s current chemistry and could cause issues such as gyo. Do not use during PCT as its detrimental to one's libido and lipids, only during cycle and please be careful with it since its extremely anti-estrogenic.
    Last edited by MMA777; 12-19-2010 at 07:46 AM. Reason: updating/adding

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    you left out my fav but this is still a great read

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    Formestane
    Formestane (Lentaron)is simply androstenedione with one hydroxyl (OH) group bond atttached at the fourth carbon molecule. It’s a second generation Type1 steroidal suicidal aromatase inhibitor which offers nice androgenic boosting properties while blocking DHT in the prostate, this also allows for more testosterone to stay in the body. Formestane acts like most SERM’s in which it binds to the 5aReductase receptors within the prostate which prevents DHT from becoming too overly pronounced over estrogen in terms of ratio within the prostate.This AI basically lowers than chances of one obtaining prostate cancer while on it. This also means that if one is prone to hair loss, it will help keep the hair on one’s scalp so to speak. You are probably seeing wow this is an AI in it’s own class, and indeed it is because it increases IGF over 25% while other AI’s LOWER it with the exception of its brother Exemestane (neutral with IGF). Formestane also reduces the count of progesterone receptors which prevents decka dic side effects. Formestane has a half-life over 24 hours which it makes it a very effective AI in controlling estrogen during a highly aromatizing/progestin cycle. It also has a more pronounced effect in lowering SHBG’s than Exemestane, it lowers over 30% of SHBG’s; while Exemestane lowers around 27%. This makes Formestane another good choice for an AI during PCT. Do not take over 50mgs during PCT as it does convert to trace amounts of 4-hydroxy-testosterone which is a weak androgen; yet could delay recovery of the HPTA. Since oral Formestane contains low bio-availability, I recommend using it through transdermal application so that you reap the maximum benefits of it. I have seen people yield gains while using it on cycle or as a standalone. The best part is that is 100% legal OTC (over the counter) which means that at any time you can order it without worrying that customs will get rid of it. My favorite Formestane based product is Formastanzol since it is an easy to dry up td product with other goodies like 7,8 benzoflavone.

    ATD (Androst 1,4,6 Triene 3,17 Dione)
    1,4,6-Androstatrien-3,17-dione (ATD) is no doubt about it a effective irreversible steroidal aromatase inhibitor that is used for inhibiting estrogen production by binding and inactivating aromatase in ther peripheral (where it counts most) and adipose tissues (more for water retention) forever just like Aromasin. Over prolonged usage it becomes 1,4,6-testosterone which could delay recovery if one so chooses to use it as part of their pct. At dosages over 25mgs, ATD becomes anti-androgenic in the HPTA which causes a drop in libido, lack of aggression/vitality, also eventually leading to less LBM and if the dosage is high enough; it lower testosterone. Since ATD converts to the androgen mentioned above it will give false blood results, mistaking one’s testosterone to higher levels than what it really is, along false DHT levels. I personally don’t recommend this AI unless you use it at low dosages or only have access to that specific AI. It also works well in blocking estrogen when used topically/transdermal because it has a low molecular weight. The most common side with ATD is loss of libido and sore joints, some people get decent strength gains. The first time I used, I did indeed gains some strength, but I tried it again within a 4 month period and got virtually nothing from it. In my experience there are much better choices for AI’s such as the one’s above.

    6-bromo (6 Bromo Androst 1,4 Diene 3,17 Dione)
    6-bromo is a steroidal irreversible AI which is also blocks prolactin, remember its family to Bromocriptine. Realize that most manufacturers distribute the alpha isomer, 6-bromo comes in two different isomers that both contain anti-estrogenic properties. 6alpha chloro testosterone has about three times the anabolic potential than that of testosterone. What I am getting at is that 6alpha bromo androstendione should convert to 6-alpha bromo-testosterone (same potency as 6-chloro) which is SUPPRESSIVE, don’t kid yourself. I recently saw blood work at an endocrinologist’s office who had a patient of his take 6-bromo to see if it could replace further actions. The results were not so good, as his testosterone droped 35%, not so good at only 50mgs. The problem with 6-halogenated androgens is the fact they become over time anti-androgenic as well . As you see the alpha isomer is more likely to be suppressive than the beta-isomer as it’s the more potent androgen, and is usually the higher of ratio content per concentration. It can be used up 250mgs for AI properties as it will decrease SHBG’s around 34%, but I would only suggest that if you are on cycle. I personally will not recommend taking it during pct, as a standalone, it will suffice at 50-100mgs. This OTC compound requires further research to really know its full profile.

    Androst-3,5-dien-7,17-dione (3,7 Keto DHEA)
    3,7 Keto DHEA is a metabolite of 7-oxogeneated DHEA and is naturally occurring. It’s a non-steroidal irreversible suicidal aromatase inhibitor that does not convert to any androgens, estrogen or progesterones, in other words it will NOT cause shutdown with prolonged usage. There is a study that shows the capabilities of this AI in regards to preventing 11-Beta-HSD1 to become active. 11-Beta-HSD1 is responsible for converting cortisone to unwanted cortisol which is the dreaded muscle killing hormone. Not to mention that same 11HSD enzyme is responsible for elevating harmful/inflammating cytokines which cause the immune system to drop. This in theory would suggest that this AI also has some slight porgensterone receptor/prolactin blocking capabilities, but warrants further research as it’s a fairly new compound. This compound shows great promise since it as a higher Ki value than Aromasin which is basically the ability of the compound to bind to the designated (aromatase) receptor. As you see this compound brings 1-2 punch with lowering cortsiol which brings a better test to cort ratio and lowers estrogen, again bringing a better test to estro ratio. Again this compound still warrants for further research. I know a chemist who said that 50mgs would be ideal in limiting cortisol and keeping one’s immune system up. The basic dosing range is 50-125mgs from what people including myself have gathered. I suggest splitting the dosage from the first thing you do when you get up as cortisol levels are highest, followed with a dosage either after training or right before sleep.
    Last edited by MMA777; 12-22-2010 at 02:29 AM.

  5. #5
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    Quote Originally Posted by mich29 View Post
    you left out my fav but this is still a great read
    not done bro, this going to be updated continuosly for awhile LMAO

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    Quote Originally Posted by MMA777 View Post
    not done bro, this going to be updated continuosly for awhile LMAO
    cool can't wait to read up on my fav

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    HCG
    Human Chorionic Gonadotropin (hCG) is simply a peptide hormone that acts just like the luteinizing hormone (LH) and is ONLY found in the placenta of a pregnant woman. So I am sure that if you had a blood test while taking this substance, your doctor may see what the heck is going on, this dude is a non pregnant man. As many of us may already know LH is the hormone that signals the testes to produce testosterone from leydig cell stimulation. So LH is basically the hormone before testosterone in the conversion factor. HCG was first developed as a fertility drug for men and ovulation/pregnancy inducer in women. HCG did not become popular for steroid users up until recently. When an individual takes AAS, their hypothamulus sees that there is no need for anymore sex hormones, hence LH comes to a hault. This obviously leads to a sudden hault in the production of testosterone which is why a male will experience testicular atrohy.The testicular atrophy begins with a reduction in leydig cell volume, which then leads to a drop in testosterone levels within the testes, since 10% of the testosterone will produced withinthe adrenal cortex. Testicular atrophy can be prevented by a bi-weekly injection of HCG throughout one’s cycle. For some reason though, I have heard outlandish dosages for HCG, ranging 2500-6000 i.u.’s a week, which is WAY TOO MUCH. In a real popular study, there was a group of hypogonadal men who were being treated with HCG. When one suffers from hyogonadism, LH usually been desensitized for quite some time which is why men are often prescribed Clomid which a potent LH inducing drug as its used to induce ovulation in women. The men got the best increase in only 250 i.u.’s , NOT 500 i.u.’s. This another reason why I tell people to first inject only 125 i.u.’s twice a week to see if the testes grow back to a normal size. When the men were given higher dosages, it produced minimal or negative amounts of testosterone. The problem with too much HCG is it desensitizes LH just like too much Clomid (around 300mgs) would do the same. Too much HCG will cause the hypothamuls to signal the testes to stop producing GnRH which leads to a hault in LH and eventually shutdown of endogenous testosterone. The reason for this action from the HPTA is the fact that everyone has a testosterone capacity to which their testes can produce. Again guys, the purpose of using HCG is preserve testicle function, if we abuse HCG your LH producing capabilities will be desensitized which could lead to permanent damage. I also will say PROLONGED usage will also cause desensitized LH producing capabilities within the testes, I do not recommend using HCG longer than 12 weeks and that is pushing it. Just remember, just because your testes seem to be back to normal, does NOT mean they are 100% restored as the size of the testes only accounts for a mere percentage of how well the testes are functioning. Believe me I have seen fat guys with big nuts who clearly are suffering from low testosterone, don’t just go by the size, get blood work done always.

    BTW, if any of you have heard of the HCG diet, its clearly a fallacy and here is an abstract of a study which proves that HCG does not have significant effect on fat loss:

    “Ineffectiveness of human chorionic gonadotropin in weight reduction: a double-blind study.

    Stein MR, Julis RE, Peck CC, Hinshaw W, Sawicki JE, Deller JJ Jr.

    Our investigation was designed to retest the hypothesis of the efficacy of human chorionic gonadotropin (HCG) on weight reduction in obese women in a clinic setting. We sought to duplicate the Asher-Harper study (1973) which had found that the combination of 500 cal diet and HCG had a statistically significant benefit over the diet and placebo combination as evidenced by greater weight loss and decrease in hunger. Fifty-one women between the ages of 18 and 60 participated in our 32-day prospective, randomized, double-blind comparison of HCG versus placebo. Each patient was given the same diet (the one prescribed in the Asher-Harper study), was weighed daily Monday through Saturday and was counselled by one of the investigators who administered the injections. Laboratory studies were performed at the time of initial physical examinations and at the end of the study. Twenty of 25 in the HCG and 21 of 26 patients in the placebo groups completed 28 injections. There was no statistically significant difference in the means of the two groups in number of injections received, weight loss, percent of weight loss, hip and waist circumference, weight loss per injections, or in hunger ratings. HCG does not appear to enhance the effectiveness of a rigidly imposed regimen for weight reduction.

    PMID: 786001 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]”

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    Good info...But may I add a little something regarding the Pramipexole as a dopamine booster. It is also an incredible drug for anyone who has RLS. Restless Leg Syndrome.

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    No doubt, but that is not what this thread is about lol, more info to come soon such as SERM's and other drugs, just so swaped other things at the moment.

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    nice read....

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    Wow...very impressive MMA777. No kidding about Prami burniing fat and increase dopamine @25mg. I know this is old and a sticky but hey...I'm a newbie...l/k.

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    If opting for arimadex on cycle..would it b wise then to run all the way thru to end of pct? Given how estrogen rebounds upon stopping?...curious..
    KING

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    Quote Originally Posted by kingMD View Post
    If opting for arimadex on cycle..would it b wise then to run all the way thru to end of pct? Given how estrogen rebounds upon stopping?...curious..
    No you run the adex during, and run the Aromasin or formastanozol with a SERM in pct

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    Theyre spammmmmmin the fuck out this thread! God damn! Lol.

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    Thank you for the info on hcg

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    Quote Originally Posted by pokie12 View Post
    Good info...But may I add a little something regarding the Pramipexole as a dopamine booster. It is also an incredible drug for anyone who has RLS. Restless Leg Syndrome.
    There was a study recently that shows having an orgasm before bed cured RLS. Yeah, really!

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    I'm glad I read this. I only know a lot about a very few things (this aint one of them).

    So, I'm hearing I should try 125 iu's (2 times a week) in order to see if my cods come back to size. Think I'll try this vs the 500 iu per week to start.

    I've heard some say continue the HCG post cycle, but do I need to (or just do a combo of Clomid / Nolva instead PCT)?

    sorry gang, i'm as green as they come (just started my 1st cycle at 46 - test cyp (600mg/wk - 12 wks).

    Snake

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    Quote Originally Posted by Snake View Post
    I'm glad I read this. I only know a lot about a very few things (this aint one of them).

    So, I'm hearing I should try 125 iu's (2 times a week) in order to see if my cods come back to size. Think I'll try this vs the 500 iu per week to start.

    I've heard some say continue the HCG post cycle, but do I need to (or just do a combo of Clomid / Nolva instead PCT)?

    sorry gang, i'm as green as they come (just started my 1st cycle at 46 - test cyp (600mg/wk - 12 wks).

    Snake
    NO HCG PERIOD for pct bro, just the SERM with an suicidal AI

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    Great thread! I like the updated info since last time I stopped here.

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    Killer info! Thanks for putting in the work to share. Those of us less informed (myself included) appreciate it.

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